Bosom Buddies

Marilyn · August 03, 2021, 07:05:29 PM

[LOL Jane on MaryZ's age. Not much hew here, I am still walking almost 5 miles by the end of each day. I ordered 2 "Wipe you Paws' mats for outside the doors, they are so cute. I am gradually getting this place in order, still lots of stuff in the closets to unpack, but the closets are a good hiding place until I am ready to unpack them.

I had to call my Dr in Oregon for a referral to the cardiologist, who will also be my primary Dr. I have to get Keith hooked up with a Neurologist in the same medical group in Eureka.He hasn't been ating much lately and that worries me, so I am giving him protein drinks to help.

Tomereader, I use a CPAP machine but I don't use the cleaning machines, I clean the equipment manually.

maryz · August 03, 2021, 09:43:18 PM

jane, it was tough. I put "baby" in quotes because Jean is my youngest, and this means my girls are all in their 60s now. And I'm such a miniscule 85!!

Marilyn, glad you're getting the doctor referrals. I hope you get the others you need. That may be the hardest part of moving - getting medical stuff set up again. Good luck!

MaryPage · August 04, 2021, 12:17:14 AM

Concierge medicine works a little differently depending upon the company involved. A company providing it moves in, as a third party handling the financial end of things, and meets with each patient to sell their plan. Your insurance does not have anything to do with their plan. You have to sign a contract agreeing to pay X number of dollars per year, right up front, some don't take monthly payments, others do, and you have to agree to automatic renewals by the year. You can probably Google it for more details. I ran the numbers, and my whole family agreed that they showed I was better off financially without their plan. But if you want luxury, it is a nice way to go. There are a lot of risks involved, too. If you travel at all, you will need to keep your regular insurance, as well. Your concierge doctor will not bill your insurance company: you have to be your own billing department. And concierge medicine does not cover outside doctors, such as surgeons. Oh, the ins and outs are a puzzle of problems, but when you study it all out, it is an individual choice. Personally, I think it is still for rich people who can afford carrying their regular insurance coverage AND the costs of their concierge doctor. They, the rich, have had concierge for years now, but it is new to we, the hoi polloi.

I said that I could have afforded it, and that is true. But if I lived long enough, I would have eaten up what I refer to as my "disposable" savings and would have to have dug into my Treasury Notes. Those notes represent my children's inheritance. The plan is that IF I need some type of expensive specialized healthcare, the money is there: no worries. Otherwise, that money gets split 8 ways, and I want my children to get every penny of it. And really, I think concierge medicine is a bit over the top; deed I do. The doctor does not have to work as hard, as she has fewer patients and more money. But life is much more complicated for the patient.
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jane · August 04, 2021, 09:16:57 AM

Thanks, MaryPage, for the explanation. I've read about it in large metro areas, but there's nothing here in our rural area that I know of. What we are getting is large "companies" for lack of a more precise word, gobbling up what were independent hospitals and practices.
I know, in the past, we had doctors leave here because one hospital in Cedar Rapids "owned" the practice and was dictating how long docs could spend with patients, etc. Now that hospital is part of this other "group/company/whatever."

It is a delightful 64 right now, so I walked and now need to jump in the shower...well, jump is a bit of a stretch...how about carefully climb...and have some breakfast and get ready for my 11:00 ultrasound.

Nothing else going on here....oh...yes, I have to fill my bird feeders. What excitement, huh!

It's still smoky smelling in the air. I can't imagine how those in the NW can even venture outside, much less breathe.

Our covid numbers here are high again. I guess it's back to the mask for me for going into local stores.
RATS!

Stay safe and healthy,

jane

SharonE · August 04, 2021, 02:26:50 PM

Hi Gals. I used to use a CPAP machine, but it broke and the company I had dealt with had gone out of business and I never did feel I needed it so I haven't gotten it fixed. I did have a cleaner, I think it was Soft Clean or something like that. I think it was the first one on the mkt. It was $300 and seemed to do well.

Wow, Jane, it is really cool there, but I suppose that's early in the AM. I'm glad the smoke has abated. I hope your ultra sound came out well.

Mary, I had to laugh at you "baby" being 60. Mine will be 53 in Nov. That seems unreal too.

I played bridge yesterday after a hard PT workout. Bridge was so-so. Got stuck with a women who took 5 mins to arrange her cards and couldn't figure out where to go when we changed partners. I had to take her to her table and get her partner for her and tell her to stay there. Arrrgh! I hope I know when to quit.

My cleaning girl came today and found out I'll get a new girl next week as she has found an office job at better pay. I know it's best for her, but I liked her.

I took Bunny for a long walk down to the end of the first lake at noon which is a pretty good jaunt for me. It was a cool 72 at noon!!

Marilyn, glad you're getting things settled in and have got the ball rolling on the medical transcripts.

Mary Page, I'm with you on the concierge practices. Don't think they're worth the price or effort.

Have a good day everyone. Sharon

jane · August 06, 2021, 09:16:11 AM

And it's Friday...again!

I've done my mile walk...and it's kind of foggy/hazy with smell of smoke at times. I'm hoping for rain today or tomorrow. Temps to go up next week....but that's what they said last week, too. The kids are about to start back to school here...so I'm sure the temps will hit the 90s then. They always seem to.
Our County is high for covid cases, but the Gov. has decreed weeks ago that schools cannot mandate masks.

My good news is that the yeast infection on my face, neck and chest is slowing receding...and the ultrasound shows nothing abnormal in the soft tissue along my collarbone.

I've seen a couple of unusual Olympic events ...like wall climbing and somehow that's different from boulder climbing. I don't think I'll be in training for either one anytime soon...like ever. To say these guys are in shape is a vast understatement. I think this is in the same category as those who sleep in tents on the side of mountains... again, not something I'll ever be doing.

Stay safe and healthy,
jane

Cottoncandy · August 06, 2021, 09:32:27 AM

Good morning....didn't walk this morning...too hot and humid...I am enjoying watching the olympics....amazing what they can do....hope all are well...covid going up here also...have a good weekend

MaryPage · August 06, 2021, 10:56:52 AM

Beautiful day here on the bay. You can tell it's going to be a hot one, though. It's already hot! I'm looking for a scorcher here.
Haven't watched any of the Olympics. I've never been much of a sports fan, but back in the day I used to watch the grand opening and closing, admiring the outfits chosen by each country's contestants. Or not. I can remember that fun, fun year when the Americans beat the Russians at, what? Was it ice hockey? You could practically put your head out of any window and hear the roar of "U.S.A.! U.S.A.!" In the relatively short time (at least, insofar as My life span is concerned) we have had women's soccer, I have been an avid fan of that. Even stirred myself to head for the Navy/Marine Corps Stadium here and watch a game when Mia Hamm and the girls showed up. It turned out the high point of my day was the fan in the seat to my right: she was five years old. Her daddy brought her.

But I just catch what's going on from the newspaper headlines and the bits shown on the evening news, now. There is so little time in my days; not nearly enough for all the things I want to accomplish.

I say it every year now, and yet it continues to be true: I cannot adjust my sense of the rightness of things to our children heading back to school in August! August, for crying out loud! That is go to Maine for the month time! That is begin to think about what you're going to need in the way of clothing and supplies when September comes time. Labor Day is the magic marker for your days. Two rules: you join the streams of kids heading back to the classrooms on the day AFTER Labor Day, and you never, ever wear white again until Memorial Day. Yep, the rules were simple, back in the day; and we all knew them.
Yesterday, two men came along and took out the kitchen stove and installed one of those new ones with glass topped burners. I love it; not that I've used it yet. I have the literature sitting by my easy chair. That is what it is still doing this morning: sitting there challenging me. If any of you have advice regarding these new wonders, please give it now. Daughter Becky related a tale the other day that totally stunned me. Seems Old Sam, the one she is married to, and not their grandson the cellist, left a dishtowel on a just-turned-off burner. And it fused there. She finally had to take herself off to a hardware store to get something to get the last bits of the mess off. She finally succeeded. Phew!
But this new one is much prettier than the one I've been living with here for 18 years now. It is all white, excepting the black glass top. Stunning, really.
I was not happy with the installers. Well, one was satisfactory: he never said a word. But the yackety one, who was also the one wearing shoes that made about a million black streaks on my white floor, started our relationship by asking, when I answered the front door: "Are you Mary?" "I am Mrs. Drake," I replied frostily. "Well, is your name Mary?" he persisted. "My first name is MaryPage," I responded. Then he launched a complaint about what a time they'd had finding our address, Chip came out of his room and took over, and I was not required again until papers were brought to me to sign. Good by to them, but Hello Beautiful new appliance!
Keep cool and, oh please, keep HYDRATED! Chances are if you suddenly feel a bit faint, it is not the heat itself, but your body screaming for water.
Oh, do you remember that beautiful song? "Water, cool, cool water?" Who was it? Sons of the Pioneers? I think so!

maryz · August 06, 2021, 12:38:06 PM

Darlene, sounds like typical Texas summer. Sorry - and we do love our a/c!

jane, now that kids don't have to get out in the fall for harvest, you'd think they'd wait to start school until later, but no...

MaryPage, I definitely remember starting school the day after Labor Day (growing up in Houston)! And definitely no white between Labor Day and Memorial Day, except maybe on Easter. You forgot that your hat always matched your gloves, and your purse matched your shoes. And patent leather only from Easter to Labor Day. Such silly "rules" - probably made up by some man.

Hang in there, Buddies - and we can thumb our noses at ALL those "rules"!

Tomereader1 · August 06, 2021, 01:32:45 PM

I have always loved the Olympics. Used to watch all hours of the night when they would broadcast those events "live". They have some they show at 1:00 AM onward, but I'm in bed, trying to get a couple hours of sleep. There is one event that I have never watched before (it probably hasn't been shown before) Women's Cross Country Biking. I watched it, I think on Saturday for couple hours. Oh, man, those women are awesome. Don't know how they manage all those hours on the grueling course, uphill, over large rocks, switchbacks. I'd faint trying to cycle around my block!

One of my favorite events has always been diving, platform, springboard, men's, women's, synchronized pairs. This time, these events were among the many televised in "our" early morning/late night time spot, so I missed most except for the tiny excerpts that show in primetime. To indicate how much I loved these events, I remember several past Olympics when my favorite diver (don't think the U.S. had a bunch of them back then) was a gorgeous blond Italian, Klaus DiBiasi. Does anyone else remember him?

maryz · August 06, 2021, 02:30:00 PM

Tome, I like the diving, too - but never heard of "synchronized" diving before. They're awesome. How long has that event been around? I seem to remember the name you mentioned.

jane · August 07, 2021, 12:29:22 PM

What fun to read your comments this morning! Thank you, MaryPage, Maryz, Tomereader, CottonCandy (Darlene)!

I did a short walk this morning...and then went to WalMart to get my 'scripts. AND, again, they didn't have the renewals. I don't know what happens, but the faxing of scripts 1 mile can't make it. Incredible.

Stay safe and healthy,

jane

SharonE · August 08, 2021, 04:48:32 PM

I taped some of the Olympics. I love the gymnastics, but somehow missed the finals. Simone Biel is unbelieveable and the girl who filled in for her, Suni Lee, was equally spectacular. I sometimes watch the diving and the synchronized diving, but didn't this year. I just wasn't as turned on by them as usual. I love the Winter Olympics with the skating and skiing though.

I have been trying to walk as much as possible and have been averaging 70--80% of a mile per day. I know that sounds wimpy, but for me, it's good.

I've finished my PT with the therapist but still doing it on my own.

It was hot this afternoon--91 or so, so I didn't go down to the 2nd lake.My knees were hurting too much.

Mary Page, I have a glass-top stove. The main thing is too keep it clean before you use it again. Spills really burn on.

I just got back from my walk with John and Bunny to the lake and I'm beat.

I'm fixing salmon for dinner. And Bunny says it's time for her dinner.

Have a nice evening. Sharon

jane · August 08, 2021, 06:28:53 PM

Sharon...Good for you on your walking! My philosophy is any walking/progress is better than none. I, too, didn't watch much of the Olympics. I enjoy some of the events, too. However, this year was just weird. But, then, the whole last year and a half has been weird. And, I don't think we're past that yet, even with school starting again. I'd hoped we'd be closer to normal by now.

MaryPage...I, too have a black glass top stove and I end up using the white cream that came with it and, when something is cooked on, a single edge razor blade. My cleaning gal says a little bit of shampoo...any kind...can remove some things, too.

Today I've been watching a Hannah Swenson mystery marathon on Hallmark Movies and Mysteries. They're based on Joanne Fluke's baking mysteries. These have gone by "Murder, She Baked" but this next year they're calling it Hannah Swenson's mysteries, I think it is.

Last night my neighbors and the widow who moved in the rental house next door joined me on the front porch to watch the "Country Car Cruise"...which is old/restored/vintage cars that drive a route the is right in front of my house and then to some nearby towns before returning to the fairgrounds. It was much smaller this year. It was also pretty hot out there, even at 5:00.

Stay safe and healthy,

jane

jane · August 09, 2021, 11:30:23 AM

Good humid Monday morning. No walking for this lazy slug this morning. Just couldn't get the energy together. We had lots of lightning, thunder last night and lost power for a bit by the blinking clocks on the kitchen stuff.

I did get out to the groceries for a few things, so I'm set for a day or so.

Have a safe and healthy day. More people wearing masks again in the groceries...our county is "high" for covid.

jane

SharonE · August 09, 2021, 03:05:27 PM

It is like a sauna outside. In the 90's and high humidity. But I took Bunny to the lake a beyond a little ways. Unfortunately, she did something to her paw. I couldn't see anything, but she started limping and lay down and licked it several times on the way home and after. I had some paw med of some sort that I put on her when we got home and she seems better now.

I've been going through the box of "small" clothes and found I could wear about half of them. Whoo Hoo!

I need to go back in there and get some things together for Goodwill and put some of the things that are too large back in the box. I never know when my size will change.

No rain here last night, but we need it. Our lake is getting low.

Jane, if I weren't trying to build myself up for the trip, I wouldn't have been out walking either.

I've been watching the gourmet detective series on Hallmark. They have some new ones. I taped the Hannah one, but haven't watched it yet. I usually watch the news, jeopardy and one movie and then read the rest of the evening.

Have a good week girls. Sharon

MaryPage · August 09, 2021, 07:49:11 PM

Thank you, Jane, for the tip re shampoo on glass topped stoves. When I first started out to read about the care of my new stove, I sort of quailed inside, thinking to myself that I was going to have to purchase new bottles of cream cleansers, new cloths, new razorm and so forth. One thing I do not need More of at my age is Work. Then I checked in with my daughters, and relaxed. Paper towels are quite satisfactory for cloths, thank you very much! And water will do for most cleanings. I'll be fine.

I love the Hallmark mysteries, at least those that are well acted and at least half way intelligent; but I lack the time to watch them very often at all. Oh well; I know they are there.

PBS is still my favored place, and I have purchased a membership every year since around 1970, so I can get into the PBS place for streaming. My currant favorite is still UNFORGOTTEN. I have watched every episode twice. And I find the new Professor T amusing, as well as interesting. I strongly dislike bad language, horror, strong fantasy (I love it when this is used lightly, as it is with soap bubbles in Professor T), sex, and unforgivable behavior.

Sharon, good on you for keeping up the walking! It can only be a Big Plus for you!

alpiner1 · August 09, 2021, 10:43:33 PM

MaryPage I also have a black glass topped stove & I use Bar Keeper's Friend cleaner & a wet paper towel or baking soda & a wet paper towel

MaryPage · August 10, 2021, 08:01:14 AM

Thank you, Alpiner. I keep a lot of baking soda on hand for cleaning, so that is no problem. But the Bar Keeper's Friend cleaner, where do you obtain that? I do not believe I have ever seen it. A hardware store?

I clean my porch furniture by taking a medium size pail and a smaller pail and a roll of paper towels out on the porch. I put, oh, maybe it comes to two or three handsful of baking soda in the small pail and then pour in maybe a glass full of white vinegar. It foams up enough to make you a teensy bit scared and feel like a magician. I immerse a paper towel in that and scrub away at chairs and tables and the metal strips the sliding glass doors run on. When a paper towel gets full of dirt, I throw it in the larger pail and take a new one. Works for me! There is nothing better or safer than baking soda & white vinegar. Umm, mebbe water!

jane · August 10, 2021, 09:12:51 AM

MaryPage...the BarKeeper's Friend that Alpiner and another Buddy mentioned are very good. It's in our grocery stores here with the other cleansers. I keep it handy along with other stuff since, when I do cook, I'm a messy one.

Heat Advisory already here for most of the state...ahhh...August in Iowa...just in time for the State Fair and the start of school.

Nothing exciting planned here...probably watch more mysteries and maybe throw a load of whites in the washer. Truly exciting, huh!

Stay safe and healthy,

jane

Tomereader1 · August 10, 2021, 07:26:15 PM

Any large grocery store should have the Barkeepers Friend. I got mine at Kroger. I have stainless steel sink, and it works good on that. I don't have your type of stovetop, but my daughter did at one time. If you clean it off after every use, you should have no problems.
Spills are not fun on any stove top.

MaryPage · August 10, 2021, 07:57:10 PM

Thank you, Jane and Amy.

I am going to copy here a post I made in Norm's, because we have been talking about hospital takeovers there, but it occurs to me that it, my post, is also of interest to all in here:

We here in Annapolis have had our beloved Anne Arundel Medical Center taken over (last year, 2020, the Year of the Emergence of the Pandemic) by a group called Luminis Health, and from the tone of letters to our local newspaper, we don't much like it. I think, albeit I personally am not a cog in the world of Medicine and am pretty totally ignorant of that world, it is a sad fact that our beloved local medical centers are losing money due to having to take whomsoever appears there in a state of sickness and give them treatment AND due to huge and often protracted batting back & forth over what organization from which level of government (federal, state, county or city) or which philanthropic group is going to pay up in real money, or will the case wind up in the large sum of losses incurred by the medical group. And yes, I believe every human being should receive treatment. I am just not sure at all about, in fact feel quite uncomfortable contemplating, having a non-medical group full of cogs such as I come in and enclose the entire complex within its tentacles of change from bottom lines of red to black.

I have not been to hospital since Luminis took over, albeit I have read some unhappy accounts from others. Only one thing has twanged my chords, and that is the Case of The Nine Oncologists. Happens there were a very popular group of 9 oncologists in a large office in the complex. Suddenly Luminis turned its spotlights on this group and took away their hospital privileges and cut all ties with them. They brought in their own cancer specialists, and presented these to the area served with a "take it or leave it" attitude. One of the nine doctors was Mine. Yes, I knew she had (has?) other patients; but she was MINE. I am a breast cancer survivor, and most grateful to Dr. Werner and one of the
surgeons in the group. She had told me no more mammograms as of 2019. She let me go as a patient in 2020. If I Ever have any more cancer, I will try to find out how to get back into the care of this doctor. I will stand my ground and, if necessary, yell at the top of my lungs for My Doctor.

So I understand how all of the folks with complaints about our new system that I am reading about in our local newspaper feel; but most especially I belong fiercely to the groupies writing on behalf of The Nine Oncologists cut out of the system. Not fair to them, Not Fair to us, Not Fair To ME!

jane · August 11, 2021, 08:57:50 AM

Sadly, MaryPage, it seems to be happening everywhere...mergers/consolidations/whatever you want to call it...swallowing up local hospitals/medical practices...just like small businesses of every kind have been bought out/swallowed up/forced out by large companies.

The hot, humid heat continues here. I only did a short walk before it got to me at 7:00 am.
I'm picking up a friend for lunch today.

Stay safe and healthy,

jane

Cottoncandy · August 11, 2021, 09:16:36 AM

Good morning friends...thought I'd best check in..although not much going on in my world..walk early mist mornings...had 3 of my 4 kids over the weekend...enjoyed that...no grands this time to love on..but we had fun visiting...a dear friend passed away...a man lived and respected by all in this area..former coach..he and his wife..also a teacher both got covid..he had to go to hospital...due to other health problems..he didn't make it..she is doing better..the funeral will be at the football field...I guess covid safer...don't plan to go..but will call requesting funeral home write my name in book...have a great day..hope everyone is well and safe from virus

alpiner1 · August 11, 2021, 09:47:24 AM

My oncologist is leaving for some unknown reason . I thought she wouldn't be there for my next appt. but my appt. was rescheduled for a day later . I only have one more year of seeing an oncologist so hope I'm let go . I really like her.

maryz · August 11, 2021, 10:14:57 AM

alpiner et al, we do hate to lose familiar and trusted doctors, don't we. That was the toughest thing about my move - finding all new medical providers, and all that entails.

Re the glass-topped stoves, the only experience I've had with one is at the beach house we rented for many years. Frankly, I didn't like it. It took so long for the stove to cool off after use, and to cook properly, the pan/skillet had to be perfectly flat on the bottom. I guess my main objection, though, is that I just don't like electric stoves. I learned to cook on a gas stove, had to have electric for a number of years (no gas was available). I was so pleased when we moved to Chattanooga, and I was able to get a gas stove again. Margaret has a gas stove, too.

I've seen the consolidation of medical practices, too, and frankly can see some good and bad on both sides. In the smaller towns, it certainly gives our trusted family practice access to much more expertise and facilities. But you do hate to see your providers giving up some control.

Sharon, when is your trip? Margaret is planning to go to the FL panhandle beach with some friends next week - and I just heard there's a new storm heading that way. Hope she doesn't have any big problems with it.

We've got heat advisories here for today and tomorrow, temps predicted over 96, with heat indexes at 109+. I'm glad to don't have to leave the a/c for any reason.

Stay cool, Buddies!

Marilyn · August 11, 2021, 01:04:49 PM

Hello Buddies" Today I will take Keith for a pedicure. I finally got an appointment for him with a doctor but still haven't got on for me with a cardiologist. The office is waiting for my referral from the clinic in Oregon. However even aftrer they get the referral it takes 10 to 14 days for them to sort it out and cll me with an appointment.

Not much else is new here, so I am m stly just checking in to let y'all know I am still alive[

jane · August 12, 2021, 11:54:05 AM

Marilyn...good to see your post. Hurrah on the pedicure for K and a doc, too. Now, I hope you also got a pedi and can get the Oregon people on the stick to get you a doc. I hope you're breathing easier in your new home without the toxic smells.

It's stifling HOT here.I truly don't know how people can breathe in states that have this weather for long periods of time. I tried to walk early this morning, but only made it 1/2 way. A lot of young men were out running and I asked two..."football or wrestling" since those were the teeshirts they were wearing. They'd stopped for a break...and the answer was "cross country...it's the worst!" And off they went.

I had a nice lunch with an old friend who lost her husband, who'd worked with Ray, a year ago. She wants to keep in touch and we'll do this again.

Our Governor made a fool of herself in an interview about her ruling of NO mask mandates for the schools. We're in the HIGH zone, as is most of the state for the Delta variant and school starts next week, I think. I'm SO GLAD I'm not teaching anymore nor having little ones in the schools.

Stay safe and healthy,

jane

maryz · August 12, 2021, 02:17:25 PM

Well, phooey! We're in quarantine for a week. Two staff members have tested positive. Eating in room again.

MaryPage · August 12, 2021, 02:39:44 PM

When I was a baby, being vaccinated against Smallpox was a requirement. And most of the very permanent scars this vaccination made were done on upper arms. My mother was a nurse, and she knew it could just as well be somewhere else, and she thought ahead to what those arms looked like in sleeveless ball gowns, and she ordered the nurse or nurse's aide to put it on my tiny thigh. I have felt real gratitude ever since.

I can remember my much older (great grandmother, etc.) relatives telling me of children they lost to diphtheria. I don't think many people today even know what that was, or how many small gravestones are because of it.

Three of my little girls came down with measles all at once, in the fifties, and our doctor came to the house. There was a sign on our front door: MEASLES! QUARANTINE! We had to put them in our bedroom downstairs and keep it dark in there. I can still remember "Doctor Steve" sitting in a tiny chair and having a pretend tea party with these little girls. I can still see him holding that tiny cup! That measles epidemic, back in the nineteen fifties, killed some other children, but not my precious little ones.

My granddaughters had all of those vaccines and more. My generation remembers well when they announced the Polio vaccine had been invented. Oh, the relief we felt! I and my husband and all of the children lined up for that, and it wasn't a shot! We were given sugar cubes! I swear! And we also had little cards; much smaller than the Covid vaccine cards, and not white. They were a sort of orangey-pink, and I STILL HAVE MINE!

As these vaccines have come along, mostly during my lifetime, I can only remember great rejoicing. I do not recall any resistance or refusals or a movement to propagandize against being vaccinated. So when I do the takeaway, such as we had the telephone and we had the radio and from 1948 on, we had the television, I am left only with one thing we lacked: computers. So there was no social media. I sense the anti-vaccine campaign may be coming from foreign adversaries who want to divide and conquer us. What possible other mathematical proposition can I arrive at, when my whole lifetime has been full of new vaccination events coming along with no questions raised or sides taken?

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